Subject: Re: [nycjunto-discuss] Re: Friedman editorial (NYT: 2003/03/19)
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 08:33:35 -0500
To:        <nycjunto-discuss@yahoogroups.com>
From:     Bob Armstrong <bob@cosy.com>

 Malcolm ,

 Your comments on the UN are the most cogent I have recently=
 heard ,
 particularly your comments on representation proportional to=
 dues . 

 However , in this case , I think it is clear that the UN was
 transparently reflecting the opinions of the world's populations=
 ,
 and the gross dishonesty , distortion and warmongering by US=
 was
 clear to all with access to media beyond the American mainstream=
 .

 Some general thoughts expressed in a post on the LPNY=
 discussion
 group are below :

[LPNY DISCUSS] George Jr Bush makes US Rogue Nation
 ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lpny_discuss/message/13031 )

On Fri, =A07 Mar 2003 15:12:16 -0800, James Lesczynski wrote:
>=A0Bob Armstrong wrote:
>=A0>=A0I challenged the guy that I wanted to test his ability to=
 think logically
>=A0>=A0to give me a definition of "Rogue State" that excludes US if=
 the Bush
>=A0>=A0Bastards ignores the overwhelming voice of the world and the=
 global
>=A0>=A0democracy embodied , despite its flaws , in the United=
 Nations .

>=A0I am fully opposed to the war with Iraq, but the fact that the=
 UN is
> also against it is irrelevant, IMHO. There is certainly=
 nothing
> resembling democracy embodied in the UN. Who elected the=
 members?
> It's a conference of thugs and strongmen. We might as well be=
 talking
> about the democracy embodied in the meeting of the heads of=
 the
> major Families at the end of "The Godfather".

There is a lot of truth in your comparison of the UN being like a=
 meeting of the
heads of the Mafia Families . But on that level , it is a=
 democracy ( with veto
power ( insisted on by Stalin and Molotov ) by each original=
 member ) .
( I made the observation at a Junto not long ago that the reason=
 the totalitarian
 socialists , ie communists , had to seek world domination was=
 that whatever the
 internal structure of countries might be , relations between=
 them are either
 free market capitalistic - or war . )
Note , however , that at recent meetings the foreign ministers of=
 the various
countries have been directly representing their countries . The=
 FMs in many if
not most of the cases , are as directly selected as Powell . US=
 has rejected out
of hand the notion of a meeting of heads of state .

My notions of optimal planetary governmental structure are=
 strongly influenced
by notions from topology , specifically notions of coverings of=
 the set of all
sets of a given domain . The hierarchical divisions from township=
 to county
to state to federation reflect the historical inevitability of=
 such organization .
( The greatest title of a paper by the greatest professor I had=
 at Northwestern
 U. , Donald T Campbell , was " A Fish Scale Model of Collective=
 Omniscience" ;
 that's the flavor of notions without the subtlety of the=
 topology . )

It makes no sense in this WWW age to expect the top level node to=
 be empty .
( To make the point of that anachronistic notion , I am cc:ing a=
 friend in
 England , and a friend in Russia on this note . I solicit their=
 thoughts . )

We have to worry about all levels -- all are Mafias -- you've met=
 our
city council now ; you've seen it there .


It's crazy to think that the RoW is less terrified by terrorists=
 than we
Americans are .  But it is obvious that Iraq is already=
 effectively occupied
and contained and is becoming more so .

But what is scaring the hell out of them ( and me ) , and is=
 depressing commerce
and markets around the world , is that the Bush Whackos are on=
 the verge of
destroying what democracy exists on a global level -- not just=
 the representative
council that meets here , but the massed voices of virtually the=
 entire world
including all but a couple of Iraq's immediate neighbors .

If Bush ( and Blair unless parliament can take him out in a week=
 ) cannot be
stopped , it ushers in an period of USA hegemony that the USSR=
 could have only
dreamed of .  We will have the entire world to fear because they=
 , will have seen
that they must .  

The USA will no longer be in any sense the world's policeman , it=
 will
( Not in My Name ) be it's OverSeer .

This is not about oil .  Markets supply oil according to rules of=
 choice , not
force .

This is about the life blood of the State : War itself .

The argument was always that free democracies did not start wars=
 of aggression
because , with the individual being supreme , there was no gain=
 for the State .
But we have all seen that the Federal Government has become=
 totally totalitarian
in its Drug War , not giving a damn about votes within states .

Now the world is seeing to its horror that democracy has lost its=
 meaning here
to a selected President with a monomaniacal vendetta , and=
 200,000 mouths and
half a trillion dollars worth of hardware to feed and exercise at=
 whatever cost
to global stability and prosperity .

--

On Thu, 20 Mar 2003 10:32:02 -0500, Malcolm Handte wrote:
>=A0Peter, been very busy lately, but one phrase popped out on a=
 quick scan of
>=A0Friedman's piece;
>
>=A0"... it had to be done with maximum U.N legitimacy"
>
>=A0Current UN weapons proliferation (i.e., non-prolif.) chair:=
 IRAQ
>=A0Current UN Human Rights Chair: LIBYA
>
>=A0We ARE doing this war with the maximum possible UN legitimacy,=
 i.e., zero.
>
>=A0It's over.
>
>=A0This emperor wears no more clothes than the League of Nations=
 did.
>
>=A0The US should immediately reduce its dues to one of the=
 following:
>
>=A020% (with Britain, France, Russia and Mainland China paying the=
 same) if all
>=A0UN power resides in the five permanent seats -- palpably=
 false;
>
>=A010%, if half the power is in the permanent seats and the other=
 half in the
>=A0other 10 security council seats (with Angola, Cameroon, etc.=
 paying 5% of
>=A0the UN budget for that year whenever they take a rotation into=
 one of those
>=A0seats);
>
>=A05%, if the security council (as above) is half the power and=
 the remaining
>=A0175 odd (some extremely odd, not to mention microscopic)=
 countries are the
>=A0other half.
>
>=A0This last, I think, about represents the true spread of power=
 in the
>=A0organization, and 5%, by the way, is about what our proportion=
 of world
>=A0population is.
>
>=A0But what about "One country, one vote"? Well, that is nothing=
 more than the
>=A0Parliament of "rotten boroughs" which Britain got rid of in the=
 19th
>=A0century. We got to "one man, [or woman] one vote" by the middle=
 of the 20th.
>=A0Why is "one political, unit one vote" still clung to in this=
 bastion of
>=A0"progressive thinking"?
>
>=A0Even a UN in which mainland China has 20% of the power and we=
 5% is probably
>=A0better than the current Jerkwater Jerkaround.
>
>=A0And of course, the population champs, China &=A0India, would only=
 get that
>=A0power if they were willing to pay proportionate shares.
>
>=A0Why, because -- I dare say -- every study of organizational=
 decision making,
>=A0whether in the political or private sectors, places the=
 granting of power
>=A0without responsibility high on the list of predictors for bad=
 decision
>=A0making.
>
>=A0And in this game responsibility comes in only two forms: blood=
 and treasure.
>
>=A0Now, it can be argued that our dues (about 25% now, I think)=
 are about in
>=A0line now with our share of world GDP (ditto). Fine, but, again,=
 if that's
>=A0what we are to pay, then we should get 25% of the voting=
 shares.
>
>=A0-- Malcolm Handte, March 20, 2003.
>
>=A0----Original Message Follows----
>=A0From: PeterLJohnson@aol.com
>=A0To: PeterLJohnson@aol.com
>=A0Subject: Friedman editorial
>=A0Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 07:31:44 EST
>
>
>=A0D-Day
>
>=A0March 19, 2003
>=A0By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
>
>=A0President Bush is fond of cowboy imagery, so here's an
>=A0image that comes to mind about our pending war with Iraq.
>=A0In most cowboy movies the good guys round up a posse before
>=A0they ride into town and take on the black hats. We're doing
>=A0just the opposite. We're riding into Baghdad pretty much
>=A0alone and hoping to round up a posse after we get there. I
>=A0hope we do, because it may be the only way we can get out
>=A0with ourselves, and the town, in one piece.
>
>=A0This column has argued throughout this debate that removing
>=A0Saddam Hussein and helping Iraq replace his regime with a
>=A0decent, accountable government that can serve as a model in
>=A0the Middle East is worth doing - not because Iraq threatens
>=A0us with its weapons, but because we are threatened by a
>=A0collection of failing Arab-Muslim states, which churn out
>=A0way too many young people who feel humiliated, voiceless
>=A0and left behind. We have a real interest in partnering with
>=A0them for change.
>
>=A0This column has also argued, though, that such a preventive
>=A0war is so unprecedented and mammoth a task - taking over an
>=A0entire country from a standing start and rebuilding it -
>=A0that it had to be done with maximum U.N legitimacy and with
>=A0as many allies as possible.
>
>=A0President Bush has failed to build that framework before
>=A0going to war. Though the Bush team came to office with this
>=A0Iraq project in mind, it has pursued a narrow, ideological
>=A0and bullying foreign policy that has alienated so many
>=A0people that by the time it wanted to rustle up a posse for
>=A0an Iraq war, too many nations were suspicious of its
>=A0motives.
>
>=A0The president says he went the extra mile to find a
>=A0diplomatic solution. That is not true. On the eve of the
>=A0first gulf war, Secretary of State James Baker met face to
>=A0face in Geneva with the Iraqi foreign minister - a
>=A0last-ditch peace effort that left most of the world feeling
>=A0it was Iraq that refused to avoid war. This time the whole
>=A0world saw President Bush make one trip, which didn't quite
>=A0make it across the Atlantic, to sell the war to the only
>=A0two allies we had. This is not to excuse France, let alone
>=A0Saddam. France's role in blocking a credible U.N.
>=A0disarmament program was shameful.
>
>=A0But here we are, going to war, basically alone, in the face
>=A0of opposition, not so much from "the Arab Street," but from
>=A0"the World Street." Everyone wishes it were different, but
>=A0it's too late - which is why this column will henceforth
>=A0focus on how to turn these lemons into lemonade. Our
>=A0children's future hinges on doing this right, even if we
>=A0got here wrong.
>
>=A0The president's view is that in the absence of a U.N.
>=A0endorsement, this war will become "self-legitimating" when
>=A0the world sees most Iraqis greet U.S. troops as liberators.
>=A0I think there is a good chance that will play out.
>
>=A0But wars are fought for political ends. Defeating Saddam is
>=A0necessary but not sufficient to achieve those ends, which
>=A0are a more progressive Iraq and a world with fewer
>=A0terrorists and terrorist suppliers dedicated to destroying
>=A0the U.S., so Americans will feel safer at home and abroad.
>=A0We cannot achieve the latter without the former. Which
>=A0means we must bear any burden and pay any price to make
>=A0Iraq into the sort of state that fair-minded people across
>=A0the world will see and say: "You did good. You lived up to
>=A0America's promise."
>
>=A0To maximize our chances of doing that, we need to patch
>=A0things up with the world. Because having more allied
>=A0support in rebuilding Iraq will increase the odds that we
>=A0do it right, and because if the breach that has been opened
>=A0between us and our traditional friends hardens into
>=A0hostility, we will find it much tougher to manage both Iraq
>=A0and all the other threats down the road. That means the
>=A0Bush team needs an "attitude lobotomy" - it needs to get
>=A0off its high horse and start engaging people on the World
>=A0Street, listening to what's bothering them, and also
>=A0telling them what's bothering us.
>
>=A0Some 35 years ago Israel won a war in Six Days. It saw its
>=A0victory as self-legitimating. Its neighbors saw it
>=A0otherwise, and Israel has been trapped in the Seventh Day
>=A0ever since - never quite able to transform its dramatic
>=A0victory into a peace that would make Israelis feel more
>=A0secure.
>
>=A0More than 50 years ago America won a war against European
>=A0fascism, which it followed up with a Marshall Plan and
>=A0nation-building, both a handout and a hand up - in a way
>=A0that made Americans welcome across the world. Today is a
>=A0D-Day for our generation. May our leaders have the wisdom
>=A0of their predecessors from the Greatest Generation.
>
>
>=A0_______________________________________________________________=
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--
=A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864
Ultimate Computing Environment : =A0http://cosy.com/K/CoSy.htm
A WTC vision : http://cosy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/03/21 11:27:42 PM