Subject: Re: [LPNY DISCUSS] Liberty: -- Talking Points -- Hamburger or steak?
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 18:45:04 -0500
To:       Bob Armstrong <bob@cosy.com>
From:     Bob Armstrong <bob@cosy.com>
On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 11:20:42 -0500, Bob Armstrong wrote:
>=A0On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:07:30 -0500, G Triest wrote:
>=A0>=A0It would be interesting to know if that person's experience=
 in the European
>=A0>=A0health care systems are accurate, and consistent.
>
>=A0He's an honest guy . =A0I am positive Preston is simply=
 describing
>=A0his experience . That's why
>
>
>
>=A0>=A0Are we being fed inaccurate propaganda as to how bad shape=
 socialized
>=A0>=A0medicine is?
>=A0>=A0Personally I think it probably is in bad shape, but knowing=
 what really is
>=A0>=A0happening is the first thing to start from, not theory or=
 (inverted) wishful
>=A0>=A0thinking.
>=A0>
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0----- Original Message -----
>=A0>=A0From: "Bob Armstrong" <bob@cosy.com>
>=A0>=A0To: <lpny_discuss@yahoogroups.com>
>=A0>=A0Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2003 11:35 PM
>=A0>=A0Subject: Re: [LPNY DISCUSS] Liberty: -- Talking Points --=
 Hamburger or
>=A0>=A0steak?
>=A0>
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:47:00 -0500, Marc Brands Liberty=
 wrote:
>=A0>=A0>=A0A recent front-page story in the New York Times detailed=
 the European
>=A0>=A0>=A0cutbacks. According to the article, Britain, France, and=
 Germany are
>=A0>=A0>=A0all being forced to limit access to care. Rationing,=
 already
>=A0>=A0>=A0extensive, is increasing.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0The Europeans have run into a very simple economic rule. If=
 something
>=A0>=A0>=A0is perceived as free, people will consume more of it than=
 they would
>=A0>=A0>=A0if they had to pay for it.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0-- Michael Tanner, Health Care News
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0Marc , do you have a more complete link to this ?
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0I've been wanting to accumulate an effective response to the=
 following
>=A0>=A0debate on http://drugwar.com :
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0On Sun, 5 Oct 2003 20:25:05 -0400, Preston Peet wrote:
>=A0>=A0>=A0[ I ] wrote :
>=A0>=A0>=A0>Every where I have ever heard of with socialized medicine=
 , ques and high
>=A0>=A0>=A0costs are endemic.<
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0Again, and only speaking for myself:
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A01- In Norway, where I was not a citizen but did have legal=
 working papers,
>=A0>=A0I
>=A0>=A0>=A0was hospitalized for 4 days after having serious stomache=
 and abdominal
>=A0>=A0pain
>=A0>=A0>=A0(they couldn't figure out what was wrong, even with a lot=
 of bleeding
>=A0>=A0going
>=A0>=A0>=A0on, but they tried, and didn't charge me). I saw a doctor=
 many times for a
>=A0>=A0>=A0variety of reasons, and wasn't ever charged, but was given=
 prescriptions,
>=A0>=A0>=A0and never saw a line, not once- at least not more than a=
 couple people
>=A0>=A0long
>=A0>=A0>=A0in a nice, cozy waiting room.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A02- In Paris, I had a serious infection in my right hand due=
 to a
>=A0>=A0motorcycle
>=A0>=A0>=A0accident I'd had during a couple weeks visit back in=
 Florida (taking a
>=A0>=A0short
>=A0>=A0>=A0vacation from living in Paris, making myself Visa-legal=
 again) and on
>=A0>=A0>=A0Christmas Eve, I showed up at the oldest hospital in Paris,=
 across the
>=A0>=A0plaza
>=A0>=A0>=A0from Notre Dam cathedral, (can't think of the name right=
 now) and was
>=A0>=A0signed
>=A0>=A0>=A0in within a couple of hours. The "line" was only as long as=
 it took to
>=A0>=A0>=A0translate my painfully stressed English to French and for a=
 doctor to
>=A0>=A0>=A0examine my hand and tell me I had to be operated on the=
 very next morning
>=A0>=A0or
>=A0>=A0>=A0I was loosing my hand. Christmas morning I was operated on=
 and my hand was
>=A0>=A0>=A0saved. I wasn't charged and there were no lines.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A03- In England I was seen by more than one doctor,=
 hospitalized once for an
>=A0>=A0>=A0overdose, (you know, the whole charcoal, stomach pump=
 thing, the works-
>=A0>=A0and
>=A0>=A0>=A0they gave me 10 quid the next morning for bus fare- which I=
 used to get
>=A0>=A0>=A0straight, and they knew that's what I was going to do I=
 suspect) and
>=A0>=A0>=A0received prescriptions for free, all without a single=
 line.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A04- I heard complaints from a very limited number of bored=
 and faintly
>=A0>=A0silly
>=A0>=A0>=A0young people in Holland about how the government sucked and=
 the system
>=A0>=A0>=A0sucked...but the one guy who's complaining I'm thinking of=
 particularly
>=A0>=A0was
>=A0>=A0>=A0collecting a dole, and was aghast that I was even surprised=
 that he got
>=A0>=A0free
>=A0>=A0>=A0housing and a check every month. "Housing and electricity=
 are human
>=A0>=A0rights,"
>=A0>=A0>=A0he and the others sitting with us during that discussion=
 told me. He
>=A0>=A0figured
>=A0>=A0>=A0the goverment had the duty to help him and other citizens=
 out as the
>=A0>=A0>=A0government works for the people and spends the people's=
 taxes- for the
>=A0>=A0>=A0people. (Imagine that.)
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0Richard Lake wrote >>=A0Do you really believe that the health=
 insurance
>=A0>=A0>=A0industry gives a shit about anything but profit?<<
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0Bob Armstrong answered >No more or less than any other=
 industry or
>=A0>=A0>=A0government bureaucracy .
>=A0>=A0>=A0Nor does it matter . In a market , the ones that offer the=
 best product
>=A0>=A0>=A0will get the most business and accordingly profit.<
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0What exactly does this have to do with our society and=
 system here in the
>=A0>=A0US
>=A0>=A0>=A0Bob? We certainly don't get the "best product" when it=
 comes to health
>=A0>=A0>=A0insurance. Nor do we get "the best" when it comes to=
 medications- take the
>=A0>=A0>=A0current brouhaha over buying Canadian drugs because ours=
 are priced so
>=A0>=A0>=A0insanely high.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0>Are you saying people who go
>=A0>=A0>=A0into medicine and related industries are evil ? <
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0Take the US medical insurance industry- yes, I do believe=
 that most are in
>=A0>=A0>=A0it for profit, not to help people. Evil? I don't know about=
 that.
>=A0>=A0>=A0Unconcerned about people's suffering? Yes, I do believe=
 that.
>=A0>=A0>=A0The US pharmaceutical corporations? Yes, I do believe they=
 care not one
>=A0>=A0>=A0whit for people's health or happiness- they care about=
 profits only, and
>=A0>=A0we
>=A0>=A0>=A0most certainly do not have a "free market" or much choice=
 at all when it
>=A0>=A0>=A0comes to either of these examples.
>=A0>=A0>=A0Considering the amount of our taxes that go to prop up=
 industry after
>=A0>=A0>=A0industry (Amtrak, airlines, Pentagon, ONDCP for a few=
 examples) and how
>=A0>=A0>=A0little go to genuine health care and other social services,=
 I honestly
>=A0>=A0>=A0believe that if we shifted our priorities and began=
 investing in
>=A0>=A0ourselves,
>=A0>=A0>=A0we wouldn't have any more "clogging up" of the system than=
 we do today-
>=A0>=A0>=A0probably a ton less to be quite frank about it.
>=A0>=A0>=A0But then I'm an idealist who wants a better world with=
 people who
>=A0>=A0>=A0actually care for one another instead of only themselves=
 and their profit
>=A0>=A0>=A0margins.
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0>A lot of aspects of maintenance etc , and certainly in=
 things like water
>=A0>=A0>=A0systems , expertise is more efficiently found by putting=
 the tasks out for
>=A0>=A0>=A0bids to horizontally integrated specialists rather than=
 trying to maintain
>=A0>=A0a
>=A0>=A0>=A0department in the vertically integrated geographic=
 monopolies.<
>=A0>=A0>
>=A0>=A0>=A0Hmmm- so does Enron's way of doing business in=
 California/US count as
>=A0>=A0>=A0expertise? How about WorldCom? Or the myriad other=
 corporations which went
>=A0>=A0>=A0to great lengths to offer crap service while padding the=
 books and ripping
>=A0>=A0>=A0off thousands upon thousands of customers, investors and=
 taxpayers? Or
>=A0>=A0does
>=A0>=A0>=A0this relate to the bidding by all those corporations for=
 rebuilding Iraq
>=A0>=A0>=A0contracts...oh, hold on, little to no bidding there, was=
 there?
>=A0>=A0>=A0Anyway, I myself had no trouble with lines in any of the=
 aforementioned
>=A0>=A0>=A0countries which have much more caring and attentive social=
 programs than
>=A0>=A0we
>=A0>=A0>=A0in the US have- as a matter of fact, come to think of it,=
 the lines I go
>=A0>=A0>=A0through here as a matter of course are way worse than any I=
 ever
>=A0>=A0experienced
>=A0>=A0>=A0in any of these places.
>=A0>=A0>=A0Peace,
>=A0>=A0>=A0Preston
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0--
>=A0>=A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864
>=A0>=A0Restore our Right to Relax :
>=A0>=A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban=

>=A0>
>=A0>=A0Vote against your incumbent .
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0And vote For open primaries . My commentary in the voters=
 guide :
>=A0>=A0http://nyccfb.info/debates_vg/voter_guides/general_2003/ballo=
t_proposal/statements_3_pro.htm#armstrong
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0Computing Environment : http://CoSy/CoSy/
>=A0>=A0A WTC vision : http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/
>=A0>=A0Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm
>=A0>=A02003/10/28 10:47:17 PM
>=A0>
>=A0>
>=A0>
>=A0>=A0~~~ =A0=A0LIBERTARIAN PARTY OF NEW YORK =A0=A0~~~
>=A0>=A0~~~~~~ =A0=A0=A0http://www.ny.lp.org =A0=A0=A0=A0~~~~~~
>=A0>
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>
>
>=A0--=A0
>=A0=A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864
>=A0Restore our Right to Relax :
>=A0=A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban
>
>=A0=A0Vote against your incumbent .
>
>=A0=A0And vote For open primaries . My commentary in the voters=
 guide :
>=A0http://nyccfb.info/debates_vg/voter_guides/general_2003/ballot_=
proposal/statements_3_pro.htm#armstrong
>
>=A0Computing Environment : =A0http://CoSy/CoSy/
>=A0A WTC vision : http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/
>=A0Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A010/29/2003 9:54:44 AM


--=A0
=A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864
Restore our Right to Relax :
=A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban

=A0Vote against your incumbent .

=A0And vote For open primaries . My commentary in the voters guide=
 :
http://nyccfb.info/debates_vg/voter_guides/general_2003/ballot_pr=
oposal/statements_3_pro.htm#armstrong

Computing Environment : =A0http://CoSy/CoSy/
A WTC vision : http://CoSy.com/CoSy/ConicAllConnect/
Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/10/29 4:35:44 PM