Subject: Re: [lpny_manhattan] The moral case for supporting Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 15:09:26 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Wed, =A01 Oct 2003 14:07:40 -0700, James Lesczynski wrote: >=A0Bob Armstrong wrote: >=A0>=A0Everybody except the zionists keep referring to Arafat as the= elected >=A0>=A0leader . And it is clear he has great popular support . > >=A0Sure, because Arafat imprisons, tortures and kills his own= people who have opposed him. That accounts for his obvious popularity ? The Israel government , of course , imprisons thousands of= non-Jewish Palestinians , kills them in their homes and cars from US taxpayer supplied= helicopter gun-ships , sometimes killing a bunch of near bystanders , missing the= putative target ; torture , I won't even bother mentioning because that may not be= official policy . >=A0>>=A0It was the same resulting bloodshed because immediately upon= the state of Israel's creation by the UN, the armies of Egypt,= Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq immediately and= simultaneously invaded with the declared intent of Israel's= destruction! And they've been at it more or less ever since. >=A0> >=A0>=A0The creation of Theocracies tends to do that . > >=A0As I said, it's a parliamentary democracy, with Arabs in the= Knesset and in various high positions of power. Sharon appointed= an Arab cabinet member. Bibi Netanyahu is not an observant Jew,= and he was the prime minister. > >=A0>=A0You will grant , won't you , that the zionists were guilty of= atrocities >=A0>=A0of their own ? > >=A0Yes, certainly, but far fewer than the Palestinian apologists= would have us believe. > >=A0>>=A0Your the one who keeps touting the UN as the embodiment of= world democracy, Bob. Are you saying the UN's creation of the= state of Israel was illegitimate? >=A0> >=A0>=A0Yes , illegitimate . >=A0> >=A0>=A0And , of course , it has tried to control the excesses of its= bastard >=A0>=A0child ever since . > >=A0Britain, which formerly ruled Palestine, washed its hands of= the mess and turned it over to the UN to sort out. The UN sorted= it out. That sounds like as legitimate an exercise of its power= as the UN has ever had. Who or what would have been the= legitimate source of a solution to an intractable problem? Setting up a theocracy is against the freedom of religion clause= in the Charter Roosevelt forced Stalin to accept . And against the advice of= Sec of State , Dean Atcheson(sp) , Truman pushed the partition thru . And don't tell me a "Jewish State" is not intended to be a= theocracy . It was a horrible idea and we continue to see the horror . >=A0>>=A0>=A0And enslave the population and take their farms and homes= ? >=A0>>=A0> >=A0>>=A0>=A0That's Libertarian ? >=A0>> >=A0>>=A0What in the world are you talking about? >=A0>>=A0In what Palestinian propaganda rag did you read that the= population was enslaved? >=A0> >=A0>=A0I don't need to read . I see the video . > >=A0Where can I get the Palestinian slave video? Who owns these= slaves, the state of Israel or individual Jewish settlers? This= is news to me. Watch the news . See the bulldozers role . See the Walls rise .= See the olive groves burn . See the Palestinians present their ID cards= like Bantus , what was it , a decade ago , to visit their relative they used= to walk to casually . >=A0>>=A0Israel won those territory in a defensive measure in 1967.= International law gives them the right to be there. What's moral= or libertarian about saying that Jewish settlers shouldn't be= allowed to live there? >=A0> >=A0>=A0If they purchase the land without coercion . Are you going >=A0>=A0to try to tell me with a straight face that that's the case= . > >=A0As I said in the paragraph above, Israel won the land in the= 1967 war, in which they were once again _attacked_ by their Arab= neighbors. The Israel government then proceeded to allow= settlers in that land to build a buffer against future attacks.= No coercion there. WHAT ? If you take indigenous people's land to protect= yourselves from the neighboring states ( to protect against which Israel has= had overwhelming arsenals of weapons of mass destruction for at= least the last quarter century ) that's not coercion . Give me a break . >=A0>>=A0Yes, the transition to self-rule by primitives who are= ill-preprared for it will lead to the creation of another= third-world hellhole ravaged by disease, high crime and chronic= unemployment. :-p >=A0> >=A0>=A0Who are you talking about here ? > >=A0I was talking about the current situation in South Africa. Is this the same South Africa the CIA describes as : South Africa is a middle-income, emerging market with an abundant= supply of natural resources; well-developed financial, legal,= communications, energy, and transport sectors; a stock exchange= that ranks among the 10 largest in the world; and a modern= infrastructure supporting an efficient distribution of goods to= major urban centers throughout the region. However, growth has= not been strong enough to lower South Africa's high unemployment= rate; and daunting economic problems remain from the apartheid= era, especially poverty and lack of economic empowerment among= the disadvantaged groups. High crime and HIV/AIDS infection= rates also deter investment. South African economic policy is= fiscally conservative, but pragmatic, focusing on targeting= inflation and liberalizing trade as means to increase job growth= and household income. http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html#Econ= In any case , your comment implies that you feel Apartheid was= moral as well as Zionism . >=A0>=A0Certainly the freedom of all in South Africa is better than= that >=A0>=A0of the Palestinians in the West Bank . > >=A0If that's the case, the Palestinians have Arafat and themselves= to blame. From his blasted out hovel , he's responsible for the Gunships= and Bulldozers and no place that can be called their own ? I think the most patently insane notion of zionists is that if= only Arafat were disappeared , the rest of population would accept their= fate . Smoke a pipe ; get a little reality in your dreams . --=A0 =A0Bob A Liberty : http://CoSy.com/Liberty.htm =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/10/01 2:38:12 PM