Subject: Re: [lpny_manhattan] The moral case for supporting Israel Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 11:47:56 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Wed, =A01 Oct 2003 11:00:12 -0700, James Lesczynski wrote: >=A0Bob Armstrong wrote: >=A0>>=A0Not only were Palestinian Arabs welcome to become citizens= of Israel with full voting rights, but they have elected members= of the Knesset. >=A0> >=A0>=A0I've read blogs by secular Jews complaining that they are= second class citizens . >=A0>=A0The country is clearly controled by the most zionist zealots= . > >=A0Democracy is a bitch. > >=A0>>=A0The ones who live in refugee camps have their Arab neighbors= to thank, >=A0>>=A0first for talking them into fleeing in anticipation of a= swift Arab defeat >=A0>>=A0of the Israelis, >=A0> >=A0>=A0Fleeing to where ? From where ? > >=A0Fleeing to the neighboring Arab territories from Israel. > >=A0>>=A0and second when those same Arab allies refused to admit the= refugees into >=A0>>=A0their own countries. >=A0> >=A0>=A0Why should they ? Can't the people be safe in the homes they= were born in ? >=A0>=A0What happened to their property rights ? > >=A0The Palestinians _abandoned_ their homes voluntarily in= cooperation with the invading Arab armies. Despite that, Israel= still paid compensation to many Palestinians who applied for it.= Israel offered to allow the return of the Palestinians after the= 1948 war, contingent on a peace treaty with the Arabs, but the= Arabs would not agree to peace under any circumstances. Frankly I think you are subject to a lot of propaganda . The= notion that all the Palestinians deserted their homes anticipating a sudden= 6 day war is a little hard to believe . But I don't have time to follow= this up right now . >=A0>=A0Are they fully enfranchised >=A0>=A0citizens of a unified secular state ? =A0Sure doesn't look like= that . > >=A0No, the Palestinian Authority does not like to hold elections > for some reason. But the Palestinian Arabs who were smart= enough > to stay and live in Israel are fully enfranchised. Everybody except the zionists keep referring to Arafat as the= elected leader . And it is clear he has great popular support . >=A0>>=A0As for "taken territories", yes, taken when the Arabs got= their asses >=A0>>=A0kicked in one aggressive war after another. >=A0> >=A0>=A0Aggression against who ? The Europeans flooding in seeking to= set up >=A0>=A0a theocracy on the same Nietzchean philosophy as the Arian= Lebensraum >=A0>=A0they were fleeing ? The "State" didn't exist before it was= partitioned >=A0>=A0off like India and Pakistan about the same time , with the= same >=A0>=A0resulting blood shed . =A0The first clause of our first= amendment was no >=A0>=A0accident . > >=A0It was the same resulting bloodshed because immediately upon= the state of Israel's creation by the UN, the armies of Egypt,= Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq immediately and= simultaneously invaded with the declared intent of Israel's= destruction! And they've been at it more or less ever since. The creation of Theocracies tends to do that . You will grant , won't you , that the zionists were guilty of= atrocities of their own ? >=A0Your the one who keeps touting the UN as the embodiment of= world democracy, Bob. Are you saying the UN's creation of the= state of Israel was illegitimate? Yes , illegitimate . And , of course , it has tried to control the excesses of its= bastard child ever since . >=A0>>=A0To the extent that states and wars have any legitimacy, it= is legitimate >=A0>>=A0and moral for a victorious (and defending) nation to keep= the territory >=A0>>=A0it won as the spoils of war and as a defensive measure= against future >=A0>>=A0hostilities. >=A0> >=A0>=A0And enslave the population and take their farms and homes ? >=A0> >=A0>=A0That's Libertarian ? > >=A0What in the world are you talking about? > In what Palestinian propaganda rag did you read that the= population was enslaved? I don't need to read . I see the video . >=A0>=A0C-SPAN had a 25th anniversary panel about the first Camp= David , with >=A0>=A0Jimmy Carter and most of the central actors who are still= alive . >=A0>=A0At that time there were only 5000 settlers . Now there are a= quarter >=A0>=A0million . And 65% are from the US ! =A0Obviously many more are= from >=A0>=A0Russia . How can anybody try to justify that as moral much= less >=A0>=A0libertarian ? > >=A0Israel won those territory in a defensive measure in 1967.= International law gives them the right to be there. What's moral= or libertarian about saying that Jewish settlers shouldn't be= allowed to live there? If they purchase the land without coercion . Are you going to try to tell me with a straight face that that's the case . >=A0>=A0How do you differentiate it from South African apartheid ? >=A0>=A0And it is facing the same fate . > >=A0Yes, the transition to self-rule by primitives who are= ill-preprared for it will lead to the creation of another= third-world hellhole ravaged by disease, high crime and chronic= unemployment. :-p Who are you talking about here ? Certainly the freedom of all in South Africa is better than= that of the Palestinians in the West Bank . --=A0 =A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 Return our Right to Relax : =A0http://ny.lp.org/cgi-bin/petition.cgi?Against_the_Smoking_Ban =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/10/01 11:14:54 AM