Subject: Re: [drugwar][OT] only a Kommie wants everyting hunky-dory
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2003 23:19:27 -0400
To:        <drugwar@mindvox.com>
From:     Bob Armstrong <bob@cosy.com>

 Your stuff takes work to deal with , but I think we are
 finding common ground .

On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 12:31:15 -0500, Jules Siegel wrote:
>=A0on 7/17/03 11:50 AM, Bob Armstrong at bob@cosy.com wrote:
>
>=A0>=A0So only States could wire the world with phones or provide it=
 with
>=A0>=A0food and cloths and housing ?
>
>=A0As a practical matter, throughout history the state has been=
 the principal
>=A0supplier of food in major civilizations, whether through direct=
 control of
>=A0production, or other crucial support, such as obtaining slaves=
 by military
>=A0conquest.
 
 The meaning of a phrase like "the state has been the=
 principal=A0supplier of
 food" is tricky because fishers and farmers are always the=
 suppliers of
 food . The most successful organization for creating prosperity=
 has been
 the allocating of land and other resources as private property .=
 The
 Egyptians learned a lot of their geometry figuring out how to=
 survey their
 fields to lay out individual plots . 
 
>=A0Generally speaking, the intervention of the state in supplying=
 basic
>=A0survival needs may not always be direct and obvious, but is,=
 nonetheless,
>=A0almost universal. This is the true source of its power, not its=
 monopoly on
>=A0the right to kill. The private sector's inability to rise above=
 economic
>=A0selfishness makes it a willing tool of the state, so much so=
 that the two
>=A0have become almost indistinguishable.

 Certainly in providing that framework of defining private=
 property and 
 "providing a common defense" as the US Constitution did , no=
 argument .
 My friend , Richard Kostelanetz ,=
 http://www.richardkostelanetz.com/
 describes his becoming a libertarian as being an anarchist who=
 learned
 accounting .

>=A0There will always be a ruling class and it will always exploit=
 the rest of
>=A0society to its advantage, whether through direct government=
 intervention, or
>=A0private enterprise market strategies.

 Right there you state the basic structural difference : the=
 government 
 intervenes - uses force , while business can do no more than to=
 try to
 be more seductive .

> Any business entity that grows large
>=A0enough will take on the characteristics of a government

 Agree totally . 

> to the point of
>=A0competing with the state for control, often with such great=
 success that it
>=A0becomes a de facto government.

 But limited almost inevitably to some particular domain of=
 expertise , like ,
 eg , MicroSoft . 

>=A0Although corporations do control governments in many ways,=
 that's only
>=A0because the state allows them to do so because it is=
 convenient.

 New York's Empire State Development Corp using eminent domain to=
 take
 property for the New York Times new skyscraper is a local=
 example . 

> Ultimately,
>=A0the state's control of food (among other survival necessities)

 And that is directly and only thru Force .

> enables it to
>=A0maintain the loyalty of its security forces. In a crunch, an=
 astutely
>=A0managed government will always prevail over any competing=
 private power
>=A0center.

 Yep . They got the army .  It is only with the introduction of a=
 tiny
 bit of market choice with the invention of the popular vote ,=
 that that
 centralized force came under some control by the individual .

>=A0Libertarian ideas are interesting and entertaining, but they=
 are not going
>=A0anywhere important very soon because they rely too much on free=
 will and
>=A0good faith.

 We most assuredly do not rely on "good faith" . That is what we=
 reject .
 It is the Statists who rely on the good faith of an=
 uncontrollable
 Political Class that scares us when we see it's history of=
 failure .
 
 How soon libertarian ideas go anywhere , we'll see .  I choose=
 my
 direction by what I understand ; I've spent a lifetime waiting=
 for the
 world to catch on to many of these things . 

 Most of the world still takes one or another ancient tome as the=
 last
 word in the structure of reality . But little known groups can=
 have
 much deeper influences than are generally appreciated . The APL
 languages are another instance in my life .

--=A0
=A0Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 
Liberty : http://cosy.com/Liberty.htm
=A02003/07/17 10:24:49 PM