Subject: RE: [drugwar] RE: [OT] Andria joins the War is the life blood of the State-discussion Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 21:39:10 -0400 To: From: Bob Armstrong On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:19:43 +0100, Efthimiou-Mordaunt,A wrote: .... > I'm sure that the implicit assumption within it, i.e. human= goodness is simply not true.. I have tried to get across that that is exactly NOT the= assumption . In fact what we deny is that there is a class of humans so= superior in charity and intelligence , ie , the Political Class , that we must cede= our right to use our intelligence in making our own decisions and replace= that most ancient and profound of humanity's inventions , money - a carrier of= credit , with Force . It is that suppression of the freedom of individual intelligence= which is a major cause of the failure of socialism . > infact, I might go as far as to say that Libertarian ideology= is a part of the > age we live in, which assumes we should all just b allowed to= do whatever we > want, whenever we want with whomever we want etc.. So long as it is peaceful . The Libertarian Party oath frames it= in terms of the non-initiation of the use of Force ( or fraud ) . >=A0Mmh. does that include outright murderers, rapists, greedy= piglets etc? Obviously , NO . > >=A0i think I've made my point?! > Which was ? --- >=A0Yeh Bob, U are asking about state versus market power(s) and I= haven't thought about this enough to honestly answer the whole= question adequately. I only know that the deification of money= and the competition implicit in free-markets has fragmented= societies enormously AND made millions of us unemployed (and= even unemployable.) So how come Europe countries , which has much stricter labor= laws , consistently have about twice the unemployment rate as US ? >=A0While as U mention, some of our new technologies are useful,= they are also becoming the toys/tools of elites, and I am= wondering what is going to happen to the 'common man/woman' who= are struggling to simply feed themselves and their young= things? The quickest way to get the cost down on something is to charge= the people who can afford it first as much as possible so that the= motivation and resources to make it expand as rapidly as possible is maximized= . I was at a UN related seminar on "bridging the global digital= divide" . I was surprised at the unanimity of agreement that the best= thing governments can do is just stay the hell out of the way of the= free market . >=A0I simply have a terror of libertarianism cos its basic= foundations seem to suggest =A0that all of us are basically honest= and we will through using market forces/competition etc do the= right thing, and honey I just ain't seen enough of that to be= convinced.. My terror of Statism is the basic foundation that somehow people= working for a geographical force based monopoly are basically honest and= thru regulations and police and prisons etc will do the right thing , and honey= I've seen enough of that to be convinced ... that they are not . >=A0It is soooo easy to back-pocket money in unaccountable systems= right? ENRON and other 'scandals' are just a few examples. Compared to a typical Government's accounting , Enron is a= paragon of transparency . >=A0Though I am not the greatest political scientist around, I know= enough about how socio-economic structures work to be to state= this much. AND U r right to note that centralist systems have= also failed us, but I will emphasize what Cronin's speech said= last week.. WE, the people, have failed socialism, and i think,= by assuming that there was a need to be overprotective re the= use of more and more secret police-forces etc. It always fails . As I quoted : "wrong species" . Read Max Eastman's "Reflections on the Failure of Socialism" ,= 1955 . He was a friend of Lenin in the early days of the Russian= experiment . >=A0BUT in short, it all comes down to values with me.. i think= that having (political, or not) societies where everybody can= implicitly benefit - where everyone is a winner - means LESS= competition NOT more Well we certainly have progressed a long way in the last couple= of hundred years . The literature of liberty is long and profound and= includes , in addition to the US Founders , a number of Nobel prize winners in= the "dismal science" , economics . The human conundrum of= necessarily being cooperating competitors , to use the phrase of my old professor= Don Campbell , is not easy . >=A0With respect > >=A0Andria Efthimiou >=A0Editor of the Users Voice Peace thru Freedom , =A0 Bob Armstrong -- http://CoSy.com -- 212-285-1864 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A02003/07/14 6:37:14 PM